From the Open Forum, these questions from Frank Buckley:
Okay, here’s a sort of far-reaching question. How do you know when to move on? What I mean is this: not everybody has the talent to be a working writer, be it screen, novel or journalist. What is a fail-safe point.
I realize that it is the popular view that practice and determination win out, but as we all know that isn’t exactly true. You can practice shooting hoops for 20 hours a day, but if you’re 5’1, wall-eyed and wheelchair bound chances are you’re not making it to the pros.
Also, related only tangentially, how does one judge talent? I know the rule: disregard family and ask an unbiased opinion. I mean an internal check, a compass that might point you to the truth of your abilities.
These are sort of nebulous questions but, outside of your wife pulling a gun and threatening to eat a lead breakfast after she reads your stuff, many of us lack a concrete guide in establishing whether or not a writer’s life is feasible. Thanks.
Finally, an easy question! And tomorrow, I’ll follow up with my answer to the Israeli-Palestinian hostilities!
Seriously, Frank raises an important concern. Actually two of them that end up being interrelated:
* How do I know if I have writing talent?
* How do I know if/when it’s time to move on?
In my view, if you do have writing talent, then the answer to the last question is this: You never move on. With talent, it’s just a matter of persistence, longevity, great story ideas, and luck before somebody somewhere who has the clout to do something with you takes note of you.
[Now I could muck up my line of reasoning here by admitting the possibility that you could have a world of talent and somehow not be discovered. But if the discussion is limited to screenwriting and Hollywood, I won't admit that. Hollywood is too small of a community with too much crappy material flowing through it. If a writer has talent and can harness that talent into a great script, it will get noticed and it will find its way to a buyer.]
So really, the issue boils down to the question, “How do I know if I have the talent to be a [screen]writer?”
[Silence]
Okay, let me confess. I had every intention of trying to answer this question, but it’s now several days after I posed it, and everything I attempt to put into writing sounds like utter tripe!
So I’d like to hear what you have to say on the subject: How do you know if you have the talent to be a screenwriter?
I always thought that talent is to writing what luck is to card players. Sure, it looks like that's what it comes down to, but at the end of the day, Stu Ungar won the World Series of Poker twice in a row. This is impossible by luck alone.
I generally think people who talk about talent are up in the night. Writing is merely a function of communicating. Anyone can communicate–thus anyone can write. And anyone can learn to do it better, as long as they are amenable to instruction. If they are arrogant little novices who think every word they write is gold, they will never be good writers.
How do you know if you have talent?
First a quote from David Mamet, True and False, his book on acting:
"A concern with one's talent is like a concern with one's height – it is an attempt to appropriate prerogatives which the Gods have already exercised.
I am not sure I know what talent is. I have seen moments, and performances, of genius in folks I had dismissed for years as hacks. I watched students of my own and others persevere year after year when everyone but themselves knew their efforts were a pitiful waste, and have seen these people blossom into superb actors. And time and time again, I saw the Star of the Class, the Observed of all Observers, move into the greater world and lack the capacity to continue.
I don't know what talent is, and frankly, I don't care"
You don't know if you have the talent. Nobody knows.
The things you can know are other things.
I suffered 10 years trying to write drama. And never feeling on top of it. I was doing work in the business, but I always felt unsure of my craft and doubted my talent.
But I knew I wanted it more than anything else. I knew, I wanted to understand what makes drama work. Not just the act model-stuff, but at its core. Why am I drawn to drama more than music, novels and other art forms? Because its primary material and modus is conflict.
So deal with that uncertainty of your talent. Get into that conflict, but don't expect ever to be able to say for sure how much talent you've really got.
What you can know is the craft, the tradition (which is more than 2000 years old) and the day when you feel comfortable with that and the uncertainty.
It's time to move on when writing wears you down so far emotionally that it's no longer any fun to do it, and it is affecting other vital relationships in your life: family and close friends.
Sadly, several writers who have had blogs have come to that conclusion ,and are now GONE.
I think deep down you know if you have talent or not. It's not unknoble as TC Jakobsen asserts.
Creative writing requires a lot of different disciplines. Maybe the writer questioning his talent is proficent in one aspect of writing, deficent in another. The good news is a lot of skills one lacks can be learned over time, so be patient.
From personal experience I've learned, you better believe yourself, and not allow critiques/coverages to dictate who you are. I say that because some coverages you get on your work can be VERY BRUTAL, and not a true barometer of what your capable of producing your next time up to bat with a little perserverence and elbow grease.
You have to believe in yourself in a non-cocky kind of way. Be open to critism, seek to grow from it, but don't let it define you.
So sure I have talent, and guess what — I've got 10 scripts now I'm trying to sell. (Confidence + a little marketing there)
- E.C. Henry from Bonney Lake, WA
I'm going to stumble and stagger through this post because it's a topic that has recently been very near and dear to me… unfortunately.
Let the group therapy begin.
Giving up screenwriting. That's right friends. Uninstalling my Final Draft (always can use the extra drive space), boxing up my Newmarket Press books, saying adieu to the gurus – the Fields, the McKees, the Snyders, done watching movies looking for act breaks and midpoints, and giving my remaining blank notecards to my daughter to use for coloring princesses and ponies and rainbows.
I'm done.
I've been "done" before but, like the worst kind of masochistic addict, I came back.
This time feels permanent.
"Well what in God's name are you doing 'round the GITS Ranch?!" you ask.
Valid question. I guess it's sorta' like an alcoholic who recently went clean who drives by their favorite tavern and circles the block before moving on.
I'm not going to bore you with my self-serving and possibly self-indulgent reasons that finally led me to this but let's just say that the "craft" has ultimately become a little destructive in my life.
Nowadays, I'm noodling with short fiction, a little poetry here n' there, a few potential novels in the works. It's been liberating and fun (and more than a little scary, too.) I do this not for economic reasons… it's not like I think selling a book will be any easier than selling a script… in fact, these days, with the state of the publishing industry, probably the exact opposite is true.. I do it because it feels right and honest and true.
My screenwork these past few years has not been any of those things. To use Hunter Thompson's terms, fear and loathing… that's about it friends.
So.
Moving on.
I neither recommend nor would dissuade any of you from doing the same.
I just know that there is a strange sort of peace in knowing I never have to write those two fatal words again… you know the ones I mean… top of page one… one begins with "F," the other begins with "I."
Write a screenplay. Bury it in a drawer for a year or so. Dig it out read it. If it doesn't make you cringe on every other page that you could have written such a piece of trash, then chances are you've got some talent. Next comes the hard part. You have to hone that talent and figure out how to turn your halfway decent screenplay into something that is as close to perfect as it can possibly be.
I think there's a lot of people out there who have talent. It's the other stuff that isn't as common. Most people are not hard workers and can't be bothered honing their talents and perfecting their work.
As a writer, perhaps you should look at your own motivations and question the validity of those. Ask yourself what you want to get out of writing, and then ask yourself if writing is the only path to those goals.
In my opinion, people with talent (any talent, not just writing) usually stick to their craft for two simple reasons: they'd be lying to themselves if they quit, and know they would be miserable doing anything else. And they know that their talent is pretty much the only thing they're good at, making it the only option in achieving their goals.
What else do you have going on that's more important? Or is it that you just can't stand the pain of rejection anymore?
Jeff,
Sorry to hear you're giving up screenwriting. Your posts always pop. Makes me think your writing does the same.
Getting fiction published is a HERCULIAN task. When I was writing an epic fantasy novel about 6-7 years ago I went to writers events and publishers and editors wanted new writers to self-publish, and get a track record of sales BEFORE they would risk publishing you. They site the John Grisham model REPEATEDLY. They were also real big on "platform," ie. you being a celebrity, or a professional in a field REALY helps your chances of getting published.
Not to say you can't do it, Jeff, it's just tough. Anyway, I wish you God's best and hope you continue to lurk here. I like what you have to say.
- E.C. Henry from Bonney Lake, WA
@Alissa
Not true. I took nearly a year off from my first script, and when I went back to read it out of curiosity, I was cringing nonstop. Granted, there were some scenes I thought were brilliant. But there's a lot I would redo now, and it was my first script ever.
The reason I was cringing was because it was complete and utter shite, but I knew better now…and I had learned more, and honed my craft more. Because I had grown, I was able to see what I had done wrong.
Really, I think the opposite is true. If after a year you still think it's brilliant, then you are probably a talentless hack, because chances are that script is shit.
I think E.C.'s approach makes sense: keep doing it as long as it's fun and does no harm — even if you have no chance whatsoever of making it as a writer in Hollywood.
Jeff, for what its worth, I'll give you a read…
Consider the types of people swimming around this pool and the NETWORKING we might accompish if we all did our part.
If you're truly at the point in which you are describing — then you've probably never been closer to a breakthrough.
Regardless, I'll read a sample of your work, should you so desire.
Best,
RC
Look into the characters hard, and know that you didn't create them just because you were overly emotional charged. Then look at the stories that you've written and rethink why did you ever wrote the thing before in first place?
Should I give up and leave my unfinished story behind because I know that nobody's ever going to read it? and they'll just think I'm crazy? why shouldn't I keep on going and keep putting myself in my own dreams of hoping to write something for the one's who would at least take a look at it? I know you wouldn't want to waste your time or read what I wrote, but I know there are a few who would.
And I know if I don't give up and as I strive to become better, I may not be successful or accepted, but still there will be a few people who would enjoy what I wrote because maybe it talks to them on the inside.
I don't know when to move on, nor would I consider moving on forever because I know that words are like footprints that could turn pieces of paper into gold just like what man had done to Bible and sacred texts in the past. This is just the way I see it. And I wouldn't want to move on because as long as if I could see something ahead of me for doing what I love with my soul, I will not others to talk me to down, or witness something that goes against my own sense of what happiness means to me. It really depends on the individual because moving on is really just about a person's decisions in life, but in my view, why would I want to move on, if I am striving to better myself and to make my dreams come true by showing what I'm thinking or imagining? As I am constantly growing and learning as I talk to all these people like me with a passion for writing, why should I move on and forget my foolish dreams as some may call it? I know this may sound crazy, but life's too short for some of us to deny and forget our own dreams.
I will move on, only when people tell me that the stuff I wrote hurts people rather than giving some things to think about or to know. I would move on, if I had nothing to say and even do not have the interest to look into the wonders of life. And I would move on if I am person who finds my own dreams to be foolish and hopeless. But I think its even more foolish if we do not reach for our dreams.
Everybody's got their talent, and what it matters is how we could all recognize it and maintain it. The reason is because since I do think that we all came from different countries, and that different countries has a completely different scenario of an environment where we find ourselves interacting with it. It is not always easy or opportunistic for everyone to express their own talents, especially for writing. To be talented, also has to do with the time, the place, the people, and the culture as well. To be defined as talented within a country or community, it is to be recognized by the people through language expressions, and how your message was able to reflect several issues facing the current society. When it does, thats how you are recognized to be talented not just by only your personal beliefs, but recognition from the outside. First we must believe in ourself, have the passion, the love for what we do because its going to give good things away, and the unquenchable thirst to seek what's beyond the world before our eyes. (Dreams)
Talent has to move from one place to the other, because to truly have talent means that your able to give something special to everybody. And of course there are different ways to do that. Its not enough to just have self-recognition of your own talent, but instead, the only way to find out yourself is to work towards the direction of reaching out your voice to others. Talent is like a diamond in a rough, kind of like you need to chip away all the rough edges to reveal the diamond itself and its hard work particularly for a human being. And I think that diamond refers to our spiritual beings, because everybody would not deny how difficult it is to just be your true self. This is why you know, talented people had been fighting throughout their whole lives to just try and present something they've done to the world. Trying to give something to the world. How could you prove to people that you are talented as you thought to be for yourself? What makes you think your talented?
The question that we would knock our heads around…
I think we all have talent here^_^ everybody's got their own diamond in the rough and its just depends on what we think, what decisions we make on ourselves to pursue this journey of discovering our talents.
I always thought I had talent, but I wasn't sure until trustworthy people told me I did. It's very existential of me.
As for quitting, I just don't see that happening. I was 12 when I figured out writing is what I was supposed to do, so I don't care if I'm 80, I'll still be writing screenplays and thinking up stories. It helps that I have a steady job I like that I can do in the meantime.
I can't judge anyone who wants to give it up. I've been struggling at this screenwriting thing for a long time. I've gone long stretches where i didn't write, & wasn't sure if i'd go back to it. But every time I went back.
So if someone feels it's time to move on b/c of the psychic toll or whatever… I wish them well.
But I just ran across a 1996 issue of Creative Screenwriting that has an interview of Patick S. Duncan (COURAGE UNDER FIRE, MR HOLLAND'S OPUS)… It's actually one of my fav pro writer interviews…This is what he has to say about the subject:
"Persistence is the big thing. It’s more important than talent. Otherwise, how do you explain William Shatner’s career ? (He’ll punch me out one of these days) … The point is, there are a lot of people who are not that talented who succeed. Why do they succeed? Because they never quit. I know writers who are better than I am who never made it because they quit— they just gave up."
I think instead of persistence you could substitute the word "ambition", or "drive"… or even "confidence"… and that statement would still be true.
I feel "talent" (how it's defined by most people) is not the most important thing when it comes to being a successful screenwriter. There are qualities more important than pure writing talent.
The problem is that a lot of people have just enough talent to have mild, occasional success. That keeps them going. But the big breakthrough, the big career, is never going to come. And then they're forty and don't have a career.
The worst thing it could happen is the fact that you would have people telling you the word "never," because thats the sort of thing that feeds negative thoughts to people who are looking forward to pursue their own talents.
Its not always just about success man, yeah sure, you could have talent, but there may not be a big chance for anyone to become successful. But that should not be the reason for everybody to give up searching for their own happiness and dreams. It depends on you, whether you choose to pursue your path of talent even though the success might be short term or not, the only difference is the world thats going to constantly change around you. Then it depends on how you will adapt to it and find another way around to prove your talent to people. The thing is never give up, when you see something out there and you knew that you can hit the spot, perhaps to make people feel something, then that should be the reason to go for it.
If people just only pursue their talents for the sake of success and making alot of money, would you think that money is the only reason why you live your life? People would answer this different ways, but that is why there aren't many geniuses or really talented people thats been praised by the world today…Its extremely difficult, just like what Joseph Campbell tells us in his books about the Journey of heroes, or like from Star Wars, "The path of the Jedi is a perilous journey."
I know this will be an unpopular sentiment, but — not everyone has writing talent. Not everyone can play basketball well enough to be in the NBA, either (which I learned at an early age).
A worthy question to ask might be why so many feel it's so important to "be" a writer. Sure, if you've been writing since you were a kid and have an inherent ability to manipulate words (and love doing so), it makes sense to pursue the craft. But why the obsession from so many who are clearly not cut out for writing?
Why is it so important to be seen as a writer if one has no real talent for it? If one's self-worth is so tightly wrapped up in the label that the reality of their level of ability is obscured, why put yourself through such emotional dissonance?
I love writing. I love story. Anyone who feels the same should write. But people should be honest with themselves as to why they're writing — and what their chances are of doing it professionally if it's readily apparent there's no real talent there.
To me it's pretty simple: If you have to write, you write. To an extent, it's its own reward. It doesn't really matter if you "make it."
Of course I want to be able to pay my bills from screenwriting alone one day. Of course I want to see a movie made of one of my screenplays. And open at #1 at the box office.
But if all that doesn't happen, I'll still keep writing. I can't stop anyway.
Unless, maybe, one day I can. Then it's probably no fun anymore.
(Disclaimer: I'm in Germany and have no illusions of going to Hollywood. It's far less competitive and commonplace here– although that probably doesn't mean easier.)
RE: "And then they're forty and don't have a career."
First of all, while not yet forty, I started late in the game by most standards. I wish I could be that seventeen year old who wrote her first screenplay as a senior project, then made the first spec sale at twenty-five. Who doesn't? Does the cap have to be an age? I don't know about you, but here's what my markers look like… by the time I'm 25… 30… 35…
I have to say, if I stopped writing due to my own self imposed deadlines, I wouldn't have even started. Am I where I want to be? No. Haven't hit the big time. Yet. I have had some minor success: two projects in development with reputable producers and a writing assignment.
To me what separates the men from the boys is commitment to the craft. I know a lot of writers who just don’t put in the time. Writing a few hours a week isn’t going to cut it. If it means you have to stay up late and write after your day job because you don’t have the luxury to write full time, then that’s what you do. Write when you love it. Write when you hate it. Write when it’s going smoothly. Write when you’re banging your head against the wall. Write when it’s raining… You get the point.
It's a roller coaster for me. I love it and I hate it. The hate is mostly directed at myself. A lot of time spent chastising myself. Usually because I’m closer to forty than twenty and don’t have a career. Some nights I can't sleep. Sometimes it's because I have to get my pen and notebook and scribble down ideas. Some nights it's because I can't crack the code on a story. And some nights it's because I'm freaking out – what the eff I'm doing with my life? Most nights I wonder why I don't have a Xanax prescription handy.
I guess what I’m trying to say is: If you love it, don’t quit. People hit their stride in life at different ages. We’ve all known talent deficient people who’ve become successful. And most of us have known some very successful twenty-something’s who became washed-up thirty-something. Who’s to say when, how, IF, and then how long it will last?
It’s true. Movies don’t owe anybody a living. But I guess I still believe that if you have talent and persevere you’ll go somewhere. Maybe not to the top, but at least near the middle.
And to end with a cliche. "How do you know when to move on?" Follow your heart.